音縄 (Otonawa) 與つばさ (Tsubasa) 這對夫妻曾在 2012 年來台灣參與皮繩愉虐邦夜色繩豔的表演。這次有機會多請他們聊聊關於繩縛的想法，也請他們對於正在學繩縛的、對繩縛有興趣的人給些建議。
不專業採訪記者: Mai Maya
整理與編輯: Maizugirl
現場中英日口譯: Man-Chin Lo
同步刊載於縛.生
是什麼機緣讓你開始學習繩縛？甚至出道做 SM 繩縛表演呢？
Maya：在日本的 SM 大百科事典中查到最早的資料，是你 2009 年在一繩會所主辦的「春縛縄宴」中演出，地點是涉谷的「睡美人」，那就是你的第一次繩縛表演嗎？
音縄：那不是第一次。在更早之前，就有與一鬼のこ合作在「毒蟲」的活動上演出，毒蟲才是我的初次繩縛表演舞台。
つばさ：不過更早之前在睡美人有一個「桃色鬼祭典（註1）」活動中，音縄參加空氣緊縛選手競賽，持續一年幾乎都是得到冠軍。一鬼覺得音縄表演有趣，邀請他一起演出，他才開始練習繩縛。
Maya：跟 SM 大百科事典中記錄音縄是在 2009年(平成21年)9月9日以緊縛師正式出道，看來是有一些時間差呢。
音縄：欸…為什麼會有這樣的時間差呢？我也不知道。網路上的那些資訊不是我寫的。我記得那時是初次在「DX歌舞伎町SM大会（註2）」中演出，或許他們認為這樣才算是以緊縛師身分的正式出道。
つばさ：音縄的緊縛表演應該是比 2009 年更早之前就開始了。不過，也許對觀眾來說，在DX歌舞伎町SM大会的演出才算正式的「緊縛師」，在那之前僅是跟一鬼一起合作表演的「搭檔」。
Maya：學習繩縛有遇到什麼困難嗎？
音縄：困難啊…嗯…偏見吧。從事 SM 繩縛表演的同時，我是演藝圈的搞笑藝人。這樣的雙重身份，也遇到了世人對 SM 的偏見與刻板印象的困難。繩縛給人黑暗的印象，導致我必須從之前參加的搞笑團體「ラブセクシーファミリー」中退出。
擁有相同喜好的伴侶，兩人三腳同心協力非常加分
Maya：聊聊你覺得繩縛是什麼呢？
音縄：我的人生自從與繩縛相遇，有了 180 度的轉變。繩縛已經是我人生無法缺少的東西，透過繩縛實現了我很多的夢想。作為一個表演者，繩縛給我一種無限的可能性。我在做搞笑表演的時候，常會覺得很多橋段好像很類似，想著想著就覺得是不是別人有表演過？音樂創作也會覺得是不是在那邊聽過很像的？戲劇表演也是會有總是在模仿，或給人似曾相識的感覺，覺得好像在哪邊看過。但繩子卻不一樣，在表演的領域中像是未開發地區，我可以創作出很多東西，有無限的可能性。
Maya：兩位在 2012 年結婚之後，對於繩縛的感覺是否有變化呢？
つばさ：我們是因為繩縛而在一起的。如果沒有繩縛，我跟音縄只是人生中的兩條平行線，不會有交集。
音縄：之前學習繩縛我會和一繩會的成員們一起討論，但很多時候都是自己一個人在想、在模擬。現在跟老婆一起研習，兩人三腳同心協力非常加分，可以做的事情變多了。
Maya：那你婚前是怎麼找到練習繩縛的對象，以及表演的搭檔呢？
音縄：在婚前我主要是跟若林美保合作。她主動跟我說想一起合作表演，因為她本身也很喜歡演戲，我們在戲劇表演方面非常投合。我們搭檔做了一些舞台劇與緊縛融合的表演。
Maya：嗯，音縄在 2012 年來台灣夜色繩豔表演，台灣的觀眾就覺得你的表演充滿戲劇能量，很有意思。這跟你曾經的演員或摔角手經歷有關係嗎？你是如何設計出這類戲劇繩縛表演的呢？跟常見的繩縛表演很不一樣。
音縄：我18歲時就開始擔任戲劇演員，一直都從事戲劇和表演相關的工作，也有做過日本傳統戲劇、歌舞伎類的表演，那段期間內一直需要發想故事並設計成表演橋段。之後擔任搞笑藝人，也要自己想梗想故事。我喜歡表演。在繩縛表演中故事性的劇情比較少見，但我覺得融合戲劇後的繩縛有著無限的表演可能。
給繩縛初學者的建議
Maya：今天的訪問主要是給中文圈的朋友看，或許是正在學繩縛的，對於繩縛有興趣的人。你有什麼話想對這些讀者說嗎？
音縄：這樣呀！最近對於「責縄（註3）」誤解的人越來越多了。很多人以為責繩就是要很痛，吊法就是要越高難度越有挑戰性才會有趣，似乎覺得勒緊脖子是理所當然的事情，或是覺得「我綁的是責繩，所以痛是理所當然的。」
責繩不是痛，而是「苦し」。是因為拘束而感到緊、悶，對於這樣的壓迫感受到痛苦，而不是繩子本身帶來的痛感。請不要誤解。做危險的事情沒有任何意義，受傷一點都不有趣，危險的事情一點好處都沒有。不要以為受傷是理所當然的事情，繩縛絕對是可以很安全的，安全第一。
Maya：對於繩縛初學者，很多人會找不到一起的伴，你可以給一些建議嗎？
音縄：首先，希望學習繩縛的人可以有這樣的自省與覺悟，對方是把生命交給你的，你是在操控一個人的生命，務必不要粗心造成對方受傷。繩縛粗心大意是有可能造成致命危險的。請務必保持警覺與專注力，以負責對方身命的覺悟來學習繩縛。
對於尋找對象這部分，這真的很難說。到底哪裡可以找到合適的另一半呢？我也不知道。其實很多人都有找伴方面的煩惱，但若自己不先踏出一步的話，是永遠不會有開始的。總之不可以只有等待。
Maya：在繩縛的過程中，你覺得最重要的是什麼呢？
音縄：體貼。對你的伴侶抱持關心、體貼的心情。
Maya：當你看到別人做很危險的緊縛，你會去阻止他們還是做些什麼嗎？
音縄：表演中看到我會忍耐，畢竟那是別人的表演。但是若是表演者有看起來很困擾需要幫助的時候，我會過去幫忙，或是似乎快要掉下來的時候。
繩會沙龍這樣的場合，我看到可能就會去用身體撐住受縛者的身體，讓受縛者比較舒適些。
Maya：你去歐洲國家進行繩縛表演和繩縛工作坊時，有感覺到東西文化差異嗎？
音縄：非常的多，歐洲不同國家也有不同的差異。因為都住在各國當地人的家裡，在繩縛表演之外，大家的生活習慣也截然不同，感到非常的有趣。
至於繩縛上，每個國家都有每個國家的做法。也是有自顧自的綁，不親切地對待自己的夥伴，不在乎對方的感受。出國比較後，我深刻覺得日本人果然是很纖細的。
（Maya註：音縄舉很多例子在日語上面一些關於纖細的說法，因為很細膩，很難用外語簡單的字句去解釋。）
像日本不是有わび・さび（侘・寂）（註4）這個說法嗎？或者是像是しと‐やか【▽淑やか】はじらい〔はぢらひ〕【恥じらい／▽羞じらい】。出國跟外國人交流，他們很想要知道這些詞的意思。但很難解釋或說明得很細。或許是日語本身就有很多比較細微的差異，若是跟日本人溝通就可以用這些細膩的形容詞解釋與說明。但對於日本以外的朋友來說，首先是「ま【間】」這個字眼，如果用英文來說也可以是「nothing」就變成「無」，但是日語中「ま【間】」不是甚麼都沒有。我想告訴他們這些細膩感覺的差異，卻非常難使用言語來形容。
對於領悟性強的人，他們可以從欣賞表演中體會到這個「ま【間】」是什麼意思。我覺得對於繩縛的體悟與國籍無關，應該就是因人而異。感性的人就很容易理解，跟這些人以繩縛交流就能從心去傳遞「感覺」。
M-C. L:：什麼是「ま【間】」?
音縄：以戲劇來說，「ま【間】」是指沒有台詞，但是編劇仍有想表達些什麼的一段空白時間。例如情侶吵架，女主角奪門而出，之後劇本只寫個ま【間】，只留下男主角，男主角沒有台詞，露出我是不是惹她生氣她為什麼要奪門而出呢的表情。
繩縛也是有繩縛的ま【間】。舉例來說，你繩子繞過身體後，停頓了一下。這時候的停止動作並不是什麼都沒有，它蘊含了內心情感和感受。這很難用言語跟外國人解釋。
另外順帶一提，繩縛本身不僅是為了表演給人看的東西，除了表演還有很多元素在裡面。現在很多學繩的人似乎會以做一個表演為目的。
附註
- 桃色☆鬼まつり
大約自2006年底起每月舉辦的活動，一開始由月花女王、緊縛師一鬼跟人體改造的NAMIKI君為主要演出者，每個月再邀請三位或是以上的來賓表演或是其他的活動。後期加入空氣緊縛選手競賽，前三名有獎金或是禮品。是當時人氣度很高的活動，表演除了SM、人體改造(懸吊)，更有些搞笑藝人的參與，也充滿歡樂。
睡美人是一間位於涉谷的一間happing bar. - DX歌舞伎町SM大会,『SM LIVE SHOW DX』
為期十年以上，一年兩次，分別在3月和9月。一次十天。平日一天約六組表演者，有單人的表演自縛/自虐，拉子的女女情欲、緊縛師、調教師、男主女奴，女主男奴、女主女奴。女王公開徵觀眾現場調教、女奴公開徵觀眾主人調教，等等。網路上可以查到SM大會的節目單，大部分僅顯示名字跟類型，如 SOLO, 緊縛、表演、觀客調教、lesbian show。假日則是特別的活動，如繩師奈加AKIRA、風見蘭喜、夏樹女王等人的特別表演，或以浣腸為主題的「大浣腸」、以屎便糞尿為主的「スカトロ大会」。歷屆的DX歌舞伎町SM大会。2005年之前的SM大會在大宮『ショーアップ大宮』舉辦。 - 責繩，日語為「責め縄」。
- わび・さび（侘・寂）
似乎沒有中文可對應。是禪宗的概念加上茶道的精神（千利宗的詮釋），華文有禪宗，但沒有茶道，所以無翻譯，是一個只可意會不可言傳的詞，日文的「儚」也是一例。漫畫《戰國鬼才傳》裡翻成「寂禪」「寂靜禪」已是中文中比較接近的了，但仍然不是「侘寂」的全意。
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